Keskustelu:Hungarian Historical Phonology zsugorodik

The alleged Mansi word group probably itself needs revision. I'd need to check Kannisto now that his full material is out, but Munkácsi only combines the Northern and Lozva forms that are suggestive of Steinitz' "secondary" Core Mansi *ü; he has also a Pelym reflex pal-śö̰kö̰rti 'szétterít' | 'entfalten'. It seems that semantics divides along these lines too. I do not see what the Konda form meaning 'live in poverty' has to do with the others at all, and Tavda 'become bent (with old age?)' is also slightly off from the reflexes meaning 'crumple' etc.

There might be also a relevant Khanty word group: North śŭŋk, śuŋk 'hill, lump, bump' (DEWOS: 1524–) with some derivatives like Kazym śŭŋkərɬə- 'to contract, roll up' that come close to the Mansi verbs in their meaning and shape. Its proposed inherited Mansi cognate is a different word group (*śüŋk ~ ? *süŋk 'hill', Honti OUV #81), but borrowing Northern Khanty *śu/uuŋk- into Mansi would be indeed expected to result in "*śüŋk-": u + a velar (i.e. not a uvular as in native vocabulary) is the primary source of secondary Core Mansi *ü, mostly in loanwords from Komi, sometimes Russian.

(Indeed also, since "*ü" > u in Northern Mansi, I think this "secondary *ü" didn't even exist as a different proto-phoneme and this is simply just normal *u, with secondary fronting due to the velar only in the Central Mansi varieties.)

Now following further on this thread, the NKhanty words would go regularly back to Proto-Khanty *ćüŋk and semi-regularly (irregular retention of *ć…) to Proto-Uralic *ćüŋkV, and that might be expected to yield something like *csog- or *szog- in Hungarian (through the same *üg > *ug change as in fog 'tooth', fogoly 'hazelhen' and IMO fog 'to catch etc.'). It does not look impossible that after some additional development this could still result in zsugor(-od-), with semantic development parallel to Mansi, if the original root meaning was 'bump'. This at least does not really look worse at all than the Khanty words' comparison with Hungarian seg, ség 'hill'. --J. Pystynen (lähetä viesti) 28. tammikuuta 2023 kello 17.39 (EET)