Keskustelu:Hungarian Historical Phonology süly
I have changed my view on the Mari word. At the time of writing the UED draft I was not aware of the Turkic etymology, but it now looks completely obvious to me that also Mari *šĭgǝľǝ was borrowed from West Old Turkic *šiγül. The origin of Mordvin *śiľgǝ is not as clear, however, as it does not match the Turkic word so well phonologically. --Ante Aikio (keskustelu) 16. helmikuuta 2023 kello 21.53 (EET)
- Thank you, I now removed the reference to UED draft regarding the Uralic origin of Mari and Mordvin.--Sampsa Holopainen (keskustelu) 17. helmikuuta 2023 kello 15.35 (EET)
- It would be good to investigate if a metathesis *gl ~ *gľ > lg ~ ľg, or similar cases, has other evidence or counterevidence for it in Mordvin. I do not recall seeing any word-medial clusters of the type -DR- in there (outside of recent Russian loans, or clusters with a nasal where the stop is probably epenthetic, -mbr- < *mr etc.) A vaguely possible example could be e.g. marginally attested Moksha pärdakə̑- 'to wave, swing', maybe compareable with Turkic badrak 'flag'.
- Even voiceless -TR- is rare, but can be found in e.g. matrams 'to press'. This seems to be by syncope from *matəra-, given a noun correlate matə̑r 'weight' in Moksha, but then the Turkic sources here also have *-γVl- rather than just *-γl-. --J. Pystynen (lähetä viesti) 16. helmikuuta 2023 kello 22.51 (EET)
- Are there actually any other good examples of Proto-Uralic/West Uralic *kl (reflected in Mordvin)? At least the cluster certainly must have been rare in Pre-Mordvin, so perhaps the metathezis was the "easiest" way to substitute the Turkic cluster. But I agree with Juho that it would be necessary to check all the possible parallels for *gl ~ *gľ > lg ~ ľg in Mordvin before anything more certain can be said on this issue.--Sampsa Holopainen (keskustelu) 17. helmikuuta 2023 kello 15.35 (EET)
- I don't think there are any particualrly convincing examples of any cluster of the type obstruent+sonorant. That in itself is already a good reason to doubt the reconstruction *ćVklä. If the Saami, Finnic and Mordvin words are indeed etymologically connected after all, the cluster probably arose secondarily. Notably, in Saami there is also a very similar word showing trisyllabic structure: North Saami čihkalas 'pimple' (< *ćike̮le̮s), which suggests the bisyllabic form of North Saami čivhli is secondary (< *ćiklē ? < *ćike̮lē). There are also other examples of secondary development of such clusters: e.g. Finnish kupla 'bubble' (? < *kupila) ~ North Saami gohpalas 'bubble; gas bladder of a fish’ (< Proto-Saami *kope̮le̮s) (but note the bisyllabic South Saami gable 'net float' < *kople̮ ? < *kope̮le̮!) ~ MariE kuwǝ̑l, W kǝ̑wǝ̑l 'blister; bubbles on the surface of water' (< Proto-Mari *kŭwǝl). --Ante Aikio (keskustelu) 17. helmikuuta 2023 kello 15.59 (EET)
- I am not trying to suggest examples in the native vocabulary of Mordvinic either, but these clusters should probably be expected to "feed in" also in other loanwords. Word-medial stop + liquid is common enough in Turkic also otherwise, examples in other Uralic languages include e.g. Hungarian gyeplő 'reins' ← *ďipliγ, Udmurt muglo ~ mugi̮lo 'hornless' ← *mogla. Baltic and Iranian loanword examples could be another source, and I am reminded here of Koivulehto's etymologies with Indo-European *tr > Sami *rtt. --J. Pystynen (lähetä viesti) 18. helmikuuta 2023 kello 16.59 (EET)
- I don't think there are any particualrly convincing examples of any cluster of the type obstruent+sonorant. That in itself is already a good reason to doubt the reconstruction *ćVklä. If the Saami, Finnic and Mordvin words are indeed etymologically connected after all, the cluster probably arose secondarily. Notably, in Saami there is also a very similar word showing trisyllabic structure: North Saami čihkalas 'pimple' (< *ćike̮le̮s), which suggests the bisyllabic form of North Saami čivhli is secondary (< *ćiklē ? < *ćike̮lē). There are also other examples of secondary development of such clusters: e.g. Finnish kupla 'bubble' (? < *kupila) ~ North Saami gohpalas 'bubble; gas bladder of a fish’ (< Proto-Saami *kope̮le̮s) (but note the bisyllabic South Saami gable 'net float' < *kople̮ ? < *kope̮le̮!) ~ MariE kuwǝ̑l, W kǝ̑wǝ̑l 'blister; bubbles on the surface of water' (< Proto-Mari *kŭwǝl). --Ante Aikio (keskustelu) 17. helmikuuta 2023 kello 15.59 (EET)
- Are there actually any other good examples of Proto-Uralic/West Uralic *kl (reflected in Mordvin)? At least the cluster certainly must have been rare in Pre-Mordvin, so perhaps the metathezis was the "easiest" way to substitute the Turkic cluster. But I agree with Juho that it would be necessary to check all the possible parallels for *gl ~ *gľ > lg ~ ľg in Mordvin before anything more certain can be said on this issue.--Sampsa Holopainen (keskustelu) 17. helmikuuta 2023 kello 15.35 (EET)